Sun, 03/04/2012 - 2:44pm - Posted by: hardlove01

we'll never know for sure what happened, and I feel for the family. I do believe that we are all responsible to keep our behavior in check, wether it be drinking alcohol or whatever else. We need to be responsible for our actions. I have heard for years, as a local, that coastal resort cities, not just S.I.C., tend to "look the other way" during some of the public, MONEY RAISING activities, so as to not deter the partying, money spenders from visiting and spending. Some people would speculate that especially in a town where the mayor owns a liquor serving establishment, I haven't been convinced of that, HOWEVER, I do know for fact, that a S.I.C. police supervisor, while working nights, wasn't as "on the job" as he should've been at times, alot of times! If the public only knew what I happened to stumble upon, in regards to abuse of time on the clock, they would be outraged! I was !. If a supervisor can spend hours on end texting and conducting personal (monkey) "business", sometimes for multiple consecutive nights, what are the odds that younger, less experienced patrolman are patrolling? might have made a difference in the outcome of this tragedy, might have had none. I am positive that behavior like this couldn't have helped in anyway. I also have no idea as to wether or not the s.i.c. policeman I am referring to was a supervisor at the time of this accident, or even on duty for that matter. I do know that response time is important in police work, and also being pro active as opposed to re active. Maybe night shift activities should be more closely monitored by day shift administration....'who's watching the watch dogs?" Lastly, for the record, I and my family have always been supporters of all the fine, hard working, people that took an oath to "protect and serve". I in no way, intended to offend any of these hard working, dedicated people, I simply have children of my own, and would want any and all info I could gather in finding answers and have some closure.....some mention "blame game, finger pointing, sue happy, etc., let's try to stop things like this from happening again or as much as possible....god bless the Hottensteins

Mon, 02/20/2012 - 4:40pm - Posted by: barco

The civil suit against Sea Isle is pretty cut and dry. Proper procedures were either followed or not followed.

As far as a possible criminal investigation, officials really have no leverage and very little to go on.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 9:08pm - Posted by: Sally Sunshine

4ever... OMG.. I thought it was just me. Girl code is right. And I'm no puritan... so glad you said that. If you're in your hometown where everyone knows everyone, maybe it's different, but even then it's sometimes just best to take girlfriend home. A promise from a guy in a bar is kind of a joke.

barco - Some of the online stuff was pretty brutal so I agree with you there. Maybe I'm in the dark but I don't think of SIC as a mafia town. They definitively have Italians but the talk of a mob cover-up sounded a little extreme. Secondly, although SIC would be the first to respond, I think investigations of this nature get bumped up to the county level. They are the ones with the crime scene unit and forensics people so I would think they were the ones who most likely took control of the scene. SIC PD probably kept the press and whomever else out of the way. The police/EMT said he didn't feel a pulse and he may not have. He 's not in the wrong because that is consistent with hypothermia. I don't think this case will get anywhere with the city's government, police force or bar owners. Short of a miracle or a death bed declaration, I don't think anyone will ever determine how or why she was there. In my opinion the strength of the family's case is what did or didn't happen at the scene. If there is a chance she was still alive, that's the sort of thing to impact a jury.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 6:49pm - Posted by: 4everBlowingBubbles

Why aren't the people who left their intoxicated friend with some random guy not being sued? That is a violation of girl code. Or since it was a work event why isn't SGK being sued as well?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 1:23pm - Posted by: barco

@Sally, yes there is no doubt that the Sea Isle police messed up procedurally when they pronounced Tracy dead and thus prevented medics from reaching her.

Yes, Miloscia is the key here to what happened because it sounds like the idea that Tracy went off alone is based ONLY on Miloscia's testimony. The lawsuit against him was dismissed. There are number of the lawsuit documents online and a Google search brings them right up. There is also a "What Happened to Tracy Hottenstein" Facebook page where a number of her friends provide their perspectives.

The controversial medical examiner did not conduct the autopsy. He does have a quote that is quite relevant, "“It was an accurate diagnosis. The cause and manner of death aren’t an issue so much as how she ended up there.” http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/top_three/article_73d0c4f6-523c-11de-b656-001cc4c002e0.html

What I do think is unfair is this perception from some that Sea Isle and officials are involved in some sort of cover-up and are incompetent and stupid. Some of the comments on the Facebook page are downright condescending and arrogant.

The police are in a really tough spot here and they have very little to go on. No witnesses, no physical evidence of foul play (our scenarios of what could have happened are legally worthless), and nobody to provide a different version of events other than Miloscia.

If Miloscia was involved, just how are the police supposed to crack him? There is no evidence to support charging him with anything. In all fairness, it is quite possible that he is telling the truth. He can just stick to his story and keep repeating it. He can just say "no comment." He had a lawyer when he was sued so he has received legal advice about what to say and not to say. The police have ZERO leverage to use to get him to talk more IF there even is anything more to be said.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 12:42pm - Posted by: athebeach

Money better spent, instead of Lawyers, set up a charity in her name to cover rehab expenses. Many people who have drinking problems can't get help because of the lack of insurance and the cost of rehab. That would be a better way to remember Tracy and get help to the people who need it.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 12:39pm - Posted by: avalonanchoragemarina

Money better spent, instead of Lawyers, set up a charity in her name to cover rehab expenses. Many people who have drinking problems can't get help because of the lack of insurance and the cost of rehab. That would be a better way to remember Tracy and get help to the people who need it.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 12:23am - Posted by: Sally Sunshine

At one time there was an online forum and from what I recall, she had spent the day drinking with Miloscia. Apparently they had hooked up before in Sea Isle. She had dinner with him at his friends’ house and they went back out to the bars. Per the newspaper accounts, he had the opportunity to hand her off to her friends later that night so if he wasn't interested, I don't know why he didn't seize that opportunity. I don't want to believe they left the bar simultaneously and parted ways, her without her coat, purse, or cell phone but I don’t know how much logic one should apply to intoxicated people in the wee hours of the morning on a big party weekend. I believe he and his friends filed a motion to dismiss and it was probably granted. If they supplied her with alcohol when she was visibly drunk and she killed someone else, they would be culpable. They fact she was drunk and fell off someone else’s dock doesn’t make them responsible from a legal perspective. If they went their own separate way at 2:15 in the morning then maybe he is guilty of breaking his word to her friends or simply bad manners.

Miloscia is pertinent because he was the last person to see her alive and the timeline is paramount to this case. I can fully understand why her family wants some details. If you know a paramedic, especially an AtlantiCare parmedic, ask them about the protocol for hypothermia and when/how you pronounce. You never ever presume the person is dead – CPR can be lifesaving for a person with severe hypothermia who may appear to be dead. They may not be breathing, have no pulse, be cold to touch, have fixed pupils and be rigid – but they may still be alive. I think you are going to find the paramedic(s) were not permitted to go near the body. Someone made the judgement call to preserve what they thought was a crime scene. They left her there and eventually put her in a body bag. It would be interesting to know if there have been any procedural changes since this incident.

So we have a medical examiner with a history of easing the load for law enforcement. The cause of death doesn’t warrant keeping the case open, in the active sense, but yet they will keep the facts close to their chest just in case. The families of victims find that sort of thing very frustrating. It’s one of those limbo cases and it’s not the first one. The only difference with this one is you have a family who is not just going to roll over without getting any answers. Say what you want about that but I’d be raising he11 too.

Fri, 02/17/2012 - 1:07pm - Posted by: barco

@Sally, thanks for posting those articles. There is a lot of great information in them.

First thing that strikes me is that while her official cause of death is accidental, it does say she had injuries consistent with a fall. She could have fallen or she could have been pushed. Based on the evidence, her death has to be ruled accidental. This does not mean that she could not have been pushed and then suffered injuries consistent with a fall.

Second thing that strikes me is the Hottensteins sued Michael Miloscia for abandoning their daughter. However, one of the other articles has said the parents do not believe that Tracy was alone when she went into the bay. As another poster said, by suing Miloscia this keeps the pressure on him and his version of events can be examined.

Was this really an accident? Most likely investigators do not believe this either. If they really thought this was an accident they would not still be investigating and sending people to the Polar Bear Plunge.

Did Tracy really meet someone new in the few blocks from leaving The OD to falling into the bay? That is a very short walk. She spent a lot of time with Miloscia that evening so would she really leave him on the street and then wondered off with another random guy she met on Landis Ave or JFK? Most likely no. So that leaves us with Tracy going alone or with Miloscia. From what I read it sounds that the thinking that Tracy wondered off alone is based SOLELY on Miloscia's testimony. Can we confirm this?

Another bit of important background information is Hottensteins's drinking background. Generally speaking, people do not just start binge drinking in their mid 30s and physically losing control of their bodies. Does she have a history of binge drinking problems? DWIs? Public drunkenness? Passing out drunk in public in PA? I would love to hear what her friends say about her drinking past. If it turns out that the answer to these above questions are "no," then I find it even harder to believe that this was an accident.

Fri, 02/17/2012 - 11:56am - Posted by: Sally Sunshine

Rummy, the case is online somewhere - from what I remember it seemed like they were suing everyone. I also remember John Doe and John Doe Corporations so I guess they left the door open to name future defendents. I don't think it's so much about money as it is about compelling people to testify and getting answers.

Fri, 02/17/2012 - 10:20am - Posted by: rummrunner2

just curious here .but did the parents sue the guy .that was the last to see thier kid.if i was a parent I would do the same thing .BUT not every year think of someone else to sue to BRING up the pain of OUR lost again

Fri, 02/17/2012 - 1:40am - Posted by: Sally Sunshine

I get everything that everyone says here about personal responsibility. I don’t disagree. However, the family might get some closure if they could get some answers.

The guys name is Michael Miloscia. He was a person of interest but the cause of death pretty much clears him.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-02-11/news/28350507_1_tracy-hottenstein-suit-names-body-bag

And then you have the cause of death:

http://articles.philly.com/2009-05-15/news/25274696_1_acute-alcohol-intoxication-investigators-ugg-boots

So, can Miloscia still be a person of interest in her “accidental” death? Do they even have a case or a crime to investigate with an “accidental” death?

And then you read this about the medical examiner and it kind of has a Negersmith feel: http://www.northcountrygazette.org/2009/06/03/siebert_witness/

http://florida-issues.blogspot.com/2007/12/florida-ousts-controversial-medical.html

No doubt, Hottenstien was irresponsible but I can’t help but to think that if she was my family member or friend, I’d want some answers. I don’t think I could move on without them. I didn’t even know her and I find this a little creepy.

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 9:15pm - Posted by: barco

@marmoracat, I agree with you about public consumption but that is yet another claim of the lawsuit.

You are 100% correct about the guy she left The OD with. He is the key to this entire investigation. Just curious, where did you read that he has been formally cleared? Was his name ever released? Unless he cracks, or unless he was really wasted and told people what happened when he got home this case may never be solved.

I have no idea where Tracy was staying but generally speaking people in their mid-30s do not wonder off alone and fall into the bay. Think about all of the barely 21 year-old who hit Sea Isle City every summer. When was the last time one of these inexperienced drinkers wondered off alone and fell into the bay?!

Also, it is very rare for people to leave a bar together and then just say goodbye on the street and part ways.

My own theory is that the guy was walking Tracy to where he was staying and they decided to check out the bay on the way home. Probably thought it would be romantic and set the mood a bit. At this time both were probably pretty wasted. He probably tried to hook up with her there and/or finally pull her home and at some point she flagged and/or tried to bail. Having thought he had a girl in his bed for sure, and having invested much of the night with her, and being really wasted, he probably turned angry really fast. Maybe at this point she tried to leave and he grabbed her and he went for it again. Some sort of events like this lead to him pushing her and she went into the bay. Maybe it was not an intentional push into the bay but with so much alcohol senses and judgment can be severely blurred! He probably panicked or felt good at this point and then fled to go home.

Given the above scenario and the fact that it was cold and they most likely had gloves on, physical evidence like skin under nails would not exist.

Again, I would just love to know more about this mystery man. It seems officials have said VERY little about this man and he is not even mentioned in many accounts of what happened. I just do not believe that Tracy wondered off on her own after leaving The OD with this man just a few blocks away and then accidently ended up falling into the bay.

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 3:41pm - Posted by: NWW

Maybe the parents should be held liable. Why didn't they get their daughter into AA or rehab? Clearly this woman had a drinking problem.

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 10:06am - Posted by: jersey12

I feel sorry for the family. But it is sad they can't find closure without looking for someone else to blame.

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 9:35am - Posted by: The Shoob Boy

The woman is dead, rest her soul. She was a grown woman making bad decisions. Is there any dollar amount that changes that, or brings her back to life, no. It`s just a shame that a life was lost in this manner. To the Hottenstein`s lawyers, if you want to find someone to blame, just look at the photo above. At 38 years old, she should know better.

Thu, 02/16/2012 - 12:49am - Posted by: marmoracat

Barco- there was no public alcohol consumption. Surveillance video places Hottenstein inside the Ocean Drive bar, where she was drinking and left obviously intoxicated with someone(a male friend). They claimed they cleared that person of any wrongdoing. I find that VERY hard to believe. If you leave with your friend to go home, you don't split up, you walk home together. The guy knows something or did it to her. I'm almost willing to bet money on it. Interrogate him again. He's the only one who knows something. The 20,000-30,000 others who are coming down for the Plunge know nothing.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 5:15pm - Posted by: John F

As a parent, I can hardly imagine the grief and pain that the Hottensteins are sufering. However, it is obvious that they are placing the blame every where except where it belongs, on their daughter.

I surely mean no disrespect for the dead, but if you look at the history of these coastal towns, you will find many tragic stories of intoxicated persons falling into back bays and marshes. It does not make any of them less tragic, but we cannot blame them on a city, or a landowner, or a bar or a liquor store. When adults make a conscious decison to drink (or do any other form of intoxicant), they accept responsibility for the bad things which might befall them.

Denial is a terrible thing. These poor souls are in total denial that their own daughter was an adult who was the author of her own fate. Perhaps if she had been taught that while growing up, she would have been able to avoid this tragedy on her own. We are all masters of our own destiny, which is shaped by every decsion we make, every day. Unfortunately, accepting responsibility is not a very popular concept in our world today.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 4:56pm - Posted by: Sailorman18949

This is a tragedy, but there is too much finger pointing. This was not a young, naive teenager or a woman who was the victim of a date rape. This was a grown woman, making adult choices to drink, to then drink to excess, then to wander off. It is a sin what happened to her, but it is the nature of our own choices. We are all intellegent (in one means or another) and aware of the consequences of our actions. We know what will happen when we have that next drink. So did Tracy. And trust me, I grew up outside of Telford, PA. There is far more opportunities to drink, get drunk, and fall from a height then there is in Sea Isle.

Let us take a moment to remember a woman who died too early, but remember we all have made choices that brought us to where we are.

Wed, 02/15/2012 - 4:16pm - Posted by: barco

This is a sad and mysterious story. Prayers go out to friends and family members. It is unfortunate that Tracy’s parents have sued 19 people in the wake of her death. They even sued Tracy’s friends who served her dinner, first responders, and the hospital where she was pronounced dead.

The parents are essentially claiming that Sea Isle City knew of public alcohol consumption and did not enforce city ordinance. By not doing so and by hosting the Polar Bear Plunge the city has created “a state-created danger” according to the Hottensteins in their lawsuit. There have been many posts about personal responsibility in this case so I am going to skip that issue. We can debate if Sea Isle City has created a “danger” or not by hosting this event.

What I find really disgraceful is to sue Tracy’s friends and people who were just doing their jobs. Imagine being the couple who hosted her for dinner and then her parents turn around and blame you for what happened! It really is impossible for any city to secure every foot of waterfront property 24/7.

The Hottensteins would have been much better served and could have help the case more if they had partnered with Sea Isle and public officials and worked with them, not against them. It is a shame that the city is spending money defending this nonsense when that money could have been put too much better use in the investigation.